The VowsToKeep Marriage Podcast

Grace, Discipline, And The Heart Of Christian Parenting :: [Ep. 297]

• David & Tracy Sellars

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What if the real win of parenting isn’t quieter dinners or tidy rooms, but shaping a heart that keeps God at the center when life gets loud? We sit down with our kids to unpack how grace and discipline actually work together, why some rules are scaffolding and not forever, and how discerning real needs from felt needs can spare a family from debt, disappointment, and drift. The stories are simple and honest—lost retainers, toothpaste races, and a car that turned into an idol—but they point to a bigger truth: formation beats behavior management every time.

We anchor the conversation in scripture, especially Hebrews 12 and Proverbs, exploring how loving discipline trains children for righteousness and peace. That lens helps us ask better questions: Are we disciplining from anger or love? Are we teaching our kids to obey us or to honor God? How do we build boundaries that hold in split homes where one set of rules feels easier but emptier? We talk openly about modeling reconciliation after conflict, letting kids see how we put God first, marriage second, and children third, not to diminish them, but to give them a stable, joyful home that overflows with love.

Practical takeaways weave through every segment: choose consequences that target the heart, replace arbitrary rules with clear principles as kids mature, and speak love in the language each child understands—time, touch, words, or service. We also share tools for training financial wisdom early, helping teens feel the weight of choices without crushing them. By keeping Christ on the throne, our homes become training grounds for adulthood—places where kids learn to shoulder responsibility, prefer others, and read discipline as love.

If this conversation encouraged you, follow the show, share it with a friend who’s in the thick of parenting, and leave a review with one lesson you’re putting into practice this week. Your story might be the nudge another family needs.

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Vows to Keep Radio with David and Tracy Sellers. The mission of Vows to Keep is to help couples develop a biblically healthy marriage through the application of God's word and a deeper relationship with Him. They desire to help you and your spouse grow closer to each other and closer to the heart of God's design for your marriage. Now, here's David and Tracy with today's broadcast.

SPEAKER_03:

Hi, my name is Hope.

SPEAKER_02:

I am Ross, and our parents have made vows to keep.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I have two very special guests on today's broadcast, two of my children. We are going to be talking about parenting and about being children in today's Christian homes. This will be interview style between the three of us, a little bit of back and forth between Hope and Ross and I to get us started. Hope, why do you think that God gave us parents?

SPEAKER_03:

To have them take care of us.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

And to provide for our needs, to give us what we can't get. Like since we don't have a job, we can't earn the money to go ourselves, you know, shelter our food, but our parents can.

SPEAKER_02:

We really didn't have a choice when we got the parents. I mean, I kind of wish I could choose my parents sometimes. Like, hmm, this one looks pretty nice, but I got good parents. I think they're our mentors. A lot of times they don't get the gratitude that they deserve, but they do a lot of stuff in our lives that we will probably never fully realize until we're parents and doing the same things for our kids, and we'll think, wow, my parents worked really hard for me.

SPEAKER_03:

Dan, why do you think God gave you children?

SPEAKER_01:

I think there's a lot of parents that they think to themselves, Well, I understand the mechanics of what got children into my life, but that is absolutely not the purpose. That's not why God has given us children. I believe that God has given us children to go and make disciples of all nations. We can find in Matthew 28. Jesus came and said, Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I'm with you always to the very end of the age. As I look at you guys and I think about where your kids as kids as kids will go and spread the gospel.

SPEAKER_02:

It's kind of a mind-boggling thought. Let's move on to the next question. What's the most important things that parents should know about their children as they parent them?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question, Ross. I think that one of the most important things is knowing your child's heart and being aware of the kind of things that trip them up in life, much like understanding how God knows our heart. And I put a lot of parallels in my life between myself and my heavenly father, and myself and you as your physical father. Oftentimes anticipating what your needs are, or maybe even anticipating what might be temptations for you, are vital to the choices that I'm going to make as a parent. Not only about when I might be bringing discipline into your life, but also at times where I'm going to recognize, okay, this is coming in at a level that's probably higher than they understand, and right now I just need to help give them a guiding rule, and it's less about them really understanding the heart behind it. What do you guys think is the most important thing that as kids you guys need to know about your parents as they are parenting you?

SPEAKER_02:

That's a tough one.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I mean, they might need to know 'cause some kids they think that the world revolves around them, but they might not even realize that their parents have other things to do besides them. So they're like, then why don't you give me this and you should give me that? My parents are trying to do other things. So they need to realize that their parents have other things besides them.

SPEAKER_02:

I think kind of the same thing that you said, Dad, about knowing our hearts is that we have to know your heart and w why you're disciplining us. Because if you were doing it out of anger, then uh that wouldn't be right. But since we know your heart, we know that you are disciplining us because you love us and you care for us and you want a better future for us. And uh the better future for us wouldn't be that we would just get everything we want for eighteen years and then fail when we're on our own. But the better future for us would be that you would teach us now, kind of like Hebrews twelve, verse eleven says, No discipline seems pleasant at the time but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. So it's not gonna be pleasant now. I never like being grounded by electronics, I probably never will. However, I'm gonna know that lesson from when I learned it when I was thirteen or fourteen, and I'm gonna be able to use it for the rest of my life. Let's move on to the next question.

SPEAKER_03:

How did grace and discipline work against each other or for each other?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question. I think many parents, as Ross pointed out, are motivated by our anger to discipline. You as a child maybe have done something which offends us or or really bothers us. I can remember a time when Ross was a little baby, and I had just got done changing his diaper. Only to find that he messed his diaper a second time and then proceeded to barf at the same time. And of course, I had just got done cleaning him up and I was like, oh, Ross. Thankfully, he was too young to understand my anger. And I want to give that example because parents have that time before their child can actually understand to gain maturity. When I was a dad of young little babies who couldn't really understand my words, there was oftentimes where I failed as a parent. I let my frustration in a situation cause my words to not be what they should be. And I think in God's grace, He has given us as parents that first year to two years to where our kids don't totally understand what we're doing for us to get our own act together. God uses situations like the double barrel diaper barfing combo move to teach me as a dad patience. And I had to realize that little Ross at the time wasn't out to get me. In fact, I couldn't teach him anything about what he was doing. Instead, God used you, Ross, to teach me. I find God's providence in how he provides for us to become ready for the next stage of parenting all over the place. That is grace. But when we talk about grace, many parents are thinking about a time where their kiddo has messed up and they're wondering to themselves, listen, should I just let it go? Or should I bring in some discipline? And that might be that they're five years old, that might be they're 15 years old. I want to say this not providing discipline when it's truly needed by our kids is not giving them grace. It's actually setting them up for further future failures. We all love grace. But making a decision between grace and discipline is really not a decision at all. In fact, what it is is paying attention to what are your child's real needs versus what they feel their needs are. Let me give an example. And this is one that as a parents we often struggle with. Not long ago, I was talking with a gentleman who really felt like he needed a new car. Now, he was someone who wanted to go into ministry. That was his goal, but he really wanted this new car. Through our conversation, we were able to establish that you know what? Yeah, your old car is maybe not quite as shiny and nice, but it's still getting you by. The real need is to pay attention to the wisdom that we find in Proverbs 22. It says, The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is a slave to the lender. So his real need was to pray about this and see whether he really felt God was leading him to it. And if it was in fact where God was leading him, it would become time to start to save. And once he had amassed all the money needed to buy that car, go ahead and do it. Going into debt would have overcommitted the time that he would have liked to have spent volunteering in ministry and would have forced him to spend that time at work. And that's the same thing that happens in parenting, to look at what are your real needs and what are the needs you perceive. And there's times where I have to be willing to give you grace on what you think you need, but be paying attention to how I might need to teach or discipline on what your real needs are.

SPEAKER_02:

To all the kids, a shout out to all the poor little kids out there who have had braces. You hate them, I hate them, but they're good for us. So after you get braces done, in case you don't know, you get to have them taken off. It's the best thing in the world. Uh you get a retainer after that and you have to wear it to keep your teeth in the right place. The problem is that they are clear and tiny and you you lose them. And so I lost mine once and I had to replace it. And uh I had this felt need before I lost my retainer that I just had to buy this really nice RC car from Walmart, and I bought it. And uh it felt good for a little while, then I lost a retainer, and they cost about 175 bucks, and so I had to go into debt to replace it. What my felt need was was that I needed this toy right now. What I didn't realize was that my real need was going to be more immediate there, and so from now on I've always had$200 on hand. So if I lose a retainer at any time, I can replace it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's a great example, Ross. There's a lot of times where as parents we've missed the boat to teach our kids about how to stay out of debt. There's been several good training lessons along the ways with retainers because it's taught you guys a lot about keeping track of stuff and having responsibility uh for those.

SPEAKER_02:

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

So to wrap up your question, Hope, the way that you balance grace and discipline, they literally run hand in hand with each other. Knowing what your child really needs can actually be giving them grace when you are disciplining them. I look at it like this when I am out of your lives, three, four years, Ross, you're gonna be leaving the house and then she's holding up her fingers. In seven years, hope is gonna be also an adult and you're gonna be starting a life of your own. The most important thing that I can do is make sure that you understand God's grace, that you also understand God's discipline. And I don't ever want it to be that I constantly remove the discipline from your life, remove the consequences out of your life to the degree that you expect perfect ease in the world.

SPEAKER_02:

You're not ready to be hit by all the needs of the world that are gonna come on you hard and fast, you'll you're just gonna buckle.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, if you are literally the center of your parents' world and of your own world, when you get into the real world, you find that's just not how it works. And then on top of that, we're asked as Christians to make God the center of our world.

SPEAKER_00:

If you have a marriage question, please email questions at vows2keep.com. Vows2Keep will respond to you via email and perhaps use it on the air. Now let's rejoin Vows2Keep Radio with David and Tracy Sellers.

SPEAKER_01:

And all those things start now.

SPEAKER_03:

Someday, Dad, I helped the parent of 20 kids.

SPEAKER_01:

Twenty kids is a lot, hope.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I have no idea how to do it. What advice do you have on parenting?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question. I think it starts by understanding the purpose that we have as a parent to make our kids' lives successful, not in my eyes as your dad, or in your eyes as someday someone's mom, but by God's standards. Your kids are not here to please you with their lives. You're not the ultimate authority in their lives, and I think that's a really hard thing for a lot of parents to grasp. You've got to teach your kids that the Word of God and God Himself, through the power of the Holy Spirit, is the authority in our lives, and I believe that they're gonna learn that by watching what you do, a whole lot more than what you say, in fact. I also always encourage parents to never run from the discipline. There is so much gain that comes from doing the work of discipline, and we learn this by looking at God's word. Ross, would you mind reading for us Proverbs three twelve as well as Hebrews twelve verses five through eleven. I know you touched on that partly here just a minute ago, but I'd like you to read that whole section.

SPEAKER_02:

For the Lord corrects those who he loves, just as a father corrects a child in whom he delights. And then Hebrews, and have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son. Endure hardship as discipline, for God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined, and everyone undergoes discipline, then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them for it. How much more then should we submit to the Father of Spirits and live? They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best, but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

SPEAKER_01:

There's so much wisdom packed into this, and I think it's awesome that we see this analogy of God disciplining us as his children. I could give you guys several examples of cases and times where in my own life God has disciplined me, but done so out of love. I'm reminded of a gold firebird, in fact.

SPEAKER_02:

If your mom was this story before.

SPEAKER_01:

If your mom was here, she would be giggling at me. This car is a car that I had made an idol out of, and I was about twenty three years old, and it was an LS1 Ramair Firebird, a super awesome fast car, and I just had to have this car. And I found one that was wrecked, and it was within a price range I thought I could afford, and that car turned into an idol. And God used that car to discipline me, not only about being a good steward of my money, but also about ensuring that I didn't put things ahead of him. And that's a lesson that all of us as kids, as parents, struggle with. There's things that we turn into idols of our heart, and pretty soon we feel like we have to have it. And that is the kind of discipline, the kind of love that we see that God has for us. He would never let us stay in a position where we are taking him out of the God seat. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. I do think we should touch on the divorced parenting. I definitely think that's worth touching on because that's is a way too common thing. Children will just be able to run wild as much as they like at one parent's house and then not want to be at the other parent's house because of how they're being disciplined in God. You know, the one parent will just let anything fly, and the other parent will be a believer. But if the children don't understand their parents' heart for them and how they love them as they're disciplining them, they'll just want their parent who is not disciplining them because that looks better right now.

SPEAKER_01:

That's totally true, Ross. And there is many people that are listening today that are dealing with split parenting situations. Sometimes that's through divorce, sometimes it's through having children outside of marriage.

SPEAKER_03:

I was reading a book and it was about this girl who wanted a video game, and she asked her dad if she could have it, and he told her no. So she asked her dad if she could call her mom. And he said, No, I know what that question is. He wouldn't let her, but she knew that her mom would most likely let her if she asked her.

SPEAKER_01:

And was that in a situation where there were divorced parents?

SPEAKER_03:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It it is common. We do the same thing as adults. There's lots of times where we look to try to get the answer we want out of a situation and will continually try to get the answer we want, even if we really realize that this probably isn't the best thing for us. And the same thing is true with kids. There are so many times where a parent who's doing the right thing actually becomes what is perceived as an enemy to that child. That child will look at them as someone who doesn't have their best interest at heart because they won't give them what they think they want at that moment. God's word asks us to look beyond that. God's word actually asks us to love that child such that we would actually be willing to put that kind of discipline in place. And what I found through coaching many parents in this situation is that kids actually respond extremely well to having known boundaries, and they actually in the long run learn the love that that parent has for them. Going back to your question, Hope, about looking for advice on how to parent someday when you're a parent, well, one of the things I would tell you is you want to avoid making rules that suit your kingdom. You've got to teach the biblical principles that suit God's kingdom. Can you guys think of any examples of that right now in my house that are a little bit weird? They're not really following God's kingdom.

SPEAKER_02:

Us kids, when we were, maybe I was like ten and hope was seven probably, we uh had this it was just this ongoing contest where every night when dad said, get ready for bed, we would like start at the line, dad would fire the pistol and we would go to the bathroom as fast as we can to brush our teeth. And the first person to brush the t their teeth won. Well, of course, the thing is if I lose to the bathroom and Hope's there and she's already brushing her teeth, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna booty bump her to the side and start brushing my own. And then she's like, uh-uh, and she pushes me back, and then autumn comes into the fray, and so we're all just pushing each other over, and more water's getting out of the sink than in it. And uh then mom and dad step in and they're like, Stop fighting, and we're like, We're not fighting, we're racing. But then eventually, you know, after like the billionth glob of toothpaste went on the shower wall instead of in our mouths, and they made the rule that you have to wait outside the bathroom while one person brushes their teeth. So we still do the race, you just it's just to the bathroom line. But it's just kind of a rule that one person in the bathroom at a time it seems pretty silly.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and that's a great example, actually, Ross, because there are so many times where we build rules kind of recognizing what our children's maturity are. Are they going to be able to understand what we're trying to teach them? And actually, what we really have to teach you guys in that situation is patience and putting others before yourself.

SPEAKER_02:

But we never saw that at the time. All we saw was that rule. It was just the dumb rule.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, and these are one of those things that I think as a parent we have to recognize is that our kids, and now Ross, that you're 14 years old, you're clearly to the point where you're outgrowing the rule. I mean, we still have the rule, but we've got to make sure that you understand the purpose behind this is actually letting someone else go ahead of you, that you give them the preference. And then the other piece is that you would have the patience for them to be able to complete what they're looking to do. As parents, we've got to make sure that what we're doing is teaching our kids the biblical principles, that the things that are really addressing the heart level of those situations, and that we don't miss the opportunity by simply putting in place a bunch of stupid rules that put fake boundaries in our kids' life because they're going to eventually outgrow that law. And when they get out into the real world, the boundaries aren't going to be around toothpaste on the shower walls or around the bathroom. Those are going to be the kind of things that bring great disturbances into your own marriages if you've not learned how to put someone else first. Let me ask you guys this question. How are some ways that our marriage is shaping your marriages to come?

SPEAKER_02:

I like to think about the future sometimes my marriage, if I ever have one. And I think about what would I do in this certain situation always, every single time, I always end up thinking of you and mom, what would you do? Because you have a godly marriage, and so you're totally affecting my thought processes and uh my future and what I would do in a marriage situation, uh sometimes when parents fight the kids and I look at them and they're like, I guess we can do that, and so they'll end up fighting a lot, and some parents they won't discipline their kids for that, so like, well, I guess that's not wrong.

SPEAKER_03:

And so they'll go on fighting and they're not gonna end up with any friends, and they're not gonna end up with good marriage when they're fighting with their spouse.

SPEAKER_01:

Have you ever seen mommy and daddy fight before? She's shaking her head, yes. But do you see us come together in a God honoring way after that?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that's a a very important point I want to make. What hope is saying is not that Tracy and I are perfect and that we never have disagreements, but one thing that we do is make very sure that we put God at the center of those conversations. And anytime we have a disagreement, we work really hard to make sure our kids not only see the disagreement, they understand what that looks like, but they also see what making up looks like. And they see that we are committed not only to God, but to each other. Another piece of advice I'd have for you, Hope, is to really understand how your child receives love. Now, each of my three children are very different about what spells love to each of them. And the reason that this is so important to understand is that there's much like marriage, there's lots of ways that you can be trying to love your children in what means the most to you. And I see this happen a lot, especially dads, where words of affirmation are extremely important to them, or physical touch is very important to them, that they try to do those same things for their children. And maybe your child is someone who really responds very well to just having that quality time together, that shoulder-to-shoul time. The reason this is so important is that as you come to know your kids, you've got to be willing to adapt to what are the ways that love is going to be best understood. So for you, Hope, every night as you're going to bed, we have our little tickle contest, right? For you, physical touch is something which is really important. I think also that quality time is something which you really eat up a lot of. Yeah. Ross, for you, words of affirmation are really important. When you're able to see that I'm pleased with you, that I'm able to compliment you on something you're doing. That I can see makes a big impact to you.

SPEAKER_02:

I think your love language too is quality time. You love it when I come to the garage with you and we work on cars and we talk. We spend time together, and I can tell that really affects you more. Instead of me cooking the eggs for you, you would really care about the time we spent over breakfast talking, uh and just being father and son.

SPEAKER_01:

I see Autumn, our oldest daughter, who's not here with us today, uh a lot of times that means a lot to her is quality time and acts of service. When I am able to serve her and able to see how much that means to her, it's super cool. You know, the last piece of advice I'd have for you, Hope, about how to be a God-honoring parent is to make sure that you keep your priorities in your life straight. I see over and over again where parents actually put their children before their marriage, and even at times put their children before God. And that is something which I think scripture would support otherwise. Scripture supports that there should be no God before him. There can be no other idols in our life, and that includes your children. So, what that means is that God's number one, your marriage is number two, and your children are number three. And many people feel like, oh man, that's devastating to your child to have them hear that. Are either of you devastated by that statement?

SPEAKER_03:

Not really. Definitely not.

SPEAKER_01:

Because what you see is Tracy and I are in love with each other, and you guys get the overflow of that love, right? Because there's many cases where you do have to prioritize things in life. Will you spend time reading God's word? Will you spend time encouraging your friends? Will you spend time taking your spouse on a date? Will you spend time at work? Will you spend time playing with your children? All these things are a constant balancing act for a parent. And when we get those things out of whack and we spend our efforts on priorities that don't align with what God's asking of us, pretty soon you're going to find that as a parent, the sky begins to fall. So is your relationship with God the way it should be? If it is, then the next question is, is your relationship with your spouse the way it should be? If it is, then the next question should be, is your relationship with your kids the way they should be? As we wrap up today, thank you guys so much for joining us. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I want to encourage you as mom and dad to make sure that your heart is focused on obeying God's word as parents. This is not an easy job, but you know what? It goes a lot better when we follow God's word.

SPEAKER_02:

We're out of time, but I would invite you to tune in for week two of our parenting 101 as we talk about some finer points of parenting.

SPEAKER_00:

Vows to Keep is supported by a team which includes biblical coaches, writers, and pastoral advisors. If you have a desire to serve marriages in your community, we would love to hear from you. Vows to Keep is a not-for-profit marriage ministry designed to bring God's encouraging truth to the marriages of our area. As a not-for-profit organization, our commitment to Christ-like marriages includes providing much-needed services regardless of a couple's financial ability to offset the cost of Vows to Keep operations. If you are unable to donate your time or abilities, but would like to help support Vows2Keep financially, visit vowstoKeep.com and click on the donate link. This program is sponsored by Vows2Keep of Zanesfield, Ohio.

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David Sellars

Host
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Tracy Sellars

Host